#zoe salt

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Just wanted to point out about your post about Zoe, according to the MLB trading cards Zoe’s school was the school from the NYC special. Her only friend that wrote on her shoes was Jess, the Sparrow.

(Post that spawned this ask)

I give you genuine thanks for the "fun" fact, but by the gods is that asinine. This is not the kind of thing you save for a fun fact! It's the kind of thing you put in the actual show to give us a good story! Just, why??? Zoe didn't even get a cameo in the special!!! It's like they only had the idea after the fact and now they're trying to claim credit for the thing they completely failed to do. I just, gahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

[gif description: the Marvel character Thor angrily flipping a table full of food, sending it scattering across the floor.]

[ml-salt-central]

Random thing but Zoe being canonically into girls is the equivalent of putting a toothpick with the lesbian flag on a slice of white bread, it still has no flavor or substance, it just has a neat decoration

[red-balloon12]

I will never stop thinking about how Zoe has a crush on Marinette but she’s also supposed to be Chloe’s replacement.

I don’t think this just meant as the bee holder. I think this meant for a lot of things.

Being Andre’s new daughter, being the star for that movie.

The only thing Zoe hasn’t completely replaced Chloe in is being Adrien’s childhood bf.

So….with all of this being said…

DOES THIS IMPLY THAT CHLOE ACTUALLY MIGHT HAVE HAD A CRUSH ON MARINETTE AND IF CHLOE GOT HER REDEMPTION, WE COULD HAVE SEEN A CONFESSION FROM HER??? I-

This means that Thomas knew about the popular headcanon that Chloe was sapphic and was secretly in love with Marinette/Ladybug. HE TOOK THAT ISH AWAY FROM CHLOE AND GAVE IT TO ZOE-

[zoe-oneesama]

Saw your post about Andre

What do u think about Zoe, then?

As a character, she's not bringing anything worth getting excited about. Personality wise, she's just Marinette-Pre-Origins: sweet and eager for friends, but ultimately letting her fear of Chloe rule her behavior until someone else reaches out, and now she suddenly has a spine. And I'm all for the idea of Marinette taking the lessons she learned in Origins about standing up for herself and not sitting by and letting injustices happen, and then turning around and inspiring someone else to do the same, so on paper, Marinette being that person for Zoe would be sweet and make sense. Except we have a full class of kids that she could've and should've already been that inspiration for, so this feel very Too Little Too Late.

And the few things they did to try and make Zoe unique didn't have enough thought or effort put into them so they fall flat.

So she got bullied out of her old school because she "was playing a part; being someone else" and when she dropped the act, "everyone turned against me". Um, yeah, if I found out my friend who'd I'd been confiding in and getting close to lied and faked their entire personality, I wouldn't want to be friends with them anymore either. I wouldn't go so far as to put cockroaches in their locker, but I can't blame Zoe's old "friends" for feeling betrayed.

(And let's be real, the writers definitely HAD to throw in the cockroaches thing so that Zoe actually had examples of being bullied instead of "no one wanted to be my friend anymore when they found out I was a totally different person")

So she's an actress, putting on different faces to please the people around her (clearly, she learned nothing from her previous experience - it's reasonable that people didn't like you because you lied, not because they didn't like who you really are). But then they didn't even keep up this 'acting' thing for more than one episode! Sure, she dusts it off in "Gabriel Agreste", but that entire aspect of Zoe's story is resolved as soon as it's introduced.

(Though it's obvious that the show is trying to convince you that her old friends DID turn on her JUST because they didn't like her as a goody-two shoes nice girl).

With Zoe putting on a fake persona, there could've been intrigue over the episode, or even the season, about who Zoe really is. Like, Marinette is SURE that Zoe is faking being like Chloe, but she has no way to know Zoe wasn't faking being nice to her when they first met. Why not show Zoe putting on different personas than just those two? Have Zoe interact with Juleka by being low energy and stand offish, then swapping to bubbly and energetic around Rose? Have Marinette be confused and that becomes part of the Mystery of Zoe?

And how about that contrivance, that Marinette met "nice" Zoe first and so is SOOOOO sure that Zoe is faking being "mean"? And because Marinette declares this To Be So, all of her friends just believe Marinette and are willing to give Zoe a chance. (despite not believing her about other things *cough* Lila *cough*) This is the same Marinette who's canonically declared her hatred of "liars" more than once, so even if Zoe is only "pretending" to be mean, why is Marinette giving her a pass? I'll tell you why - because we need to seamlessly integrate Zoe into the main friend group so we can speed run her taking over as the new Bee.

Because that's the main problem with Zoe - it's so blatantly obvious what the writers are trying to get out of her, because they don't even TRY to hide it. Don't get it twisted, I don't care that Zoe is brought in to replace Queen Bee, Queen Bee deserves to be replaced. I care how Zoe was brought in to replace Queen Bee. If the writers had taken enough time and care to ACTUALLY seamlessly integrate Zoe, instead of just shoving her in and bending the characters to accept her with no hesitation, then Zoe wouldn't come across as such a Mary Sue-Diet Marinette.

We already have a pretty full cast, so making the audience care about this new character that they've neither hinted at or bothered to build up to in Season 4 was already a big ask. Which is why I believe they should've stretched her "faking personas" story over several episodes. Have Marinette be as wary about Zoe as she was about Lila, esPECIALLY since she's Chloe's sister, but then have Zoe showcase her range of "personas" to throw Marinette off guard. Then you can have scenes of Zoe's mask slipping, like small acts of heroism where there's no time to think: pulling someone out of the way of an akuma attack, distracting the akuma if it gets too close to Ladybug, or even using her acting to help someone else get out of trouble despite Zoe getting nothing in return. Show the REAL Zoe through her actions DESPITE her acting, which then justifies Marinette being sure that "mean" Zoe isn't the real one.

Could've even had Chloe notice that Zoe's slipping and isn't acting very much "like a Bourgeois" and make it CHLOE who digs up that Zoe was bullied, make it CHLOE who airs out all the things that were done to Zoe. I mean, who better to call out a poser than Chloe? Especially since the rest of the class would more willing to take Zoe's side against Chloe (you would think) and it helps with the whole Zoe vs Chloe thing with the Bee Miraculous. Plus, having that information aired out when Zoe didn't want it to could've been a better reason to be akumatized than just "I'm giving in to playing the role I was already determined to play and putting my shoes in this hole with my dreams." Just saying.

But they didn't want to take the time. They didn't want to try. They didn't want to put in the effort to make Zoe someone to care about, both for the audience and for the characters. They shoved her in, gave her an exposition dump, and suddenly everyone was totally cool with her, No Questions Asked. In fairness, they didn't actually have Zoe be mean to anyone other than Marinette One Time in front of Chloe, so there wasn't much to overcome. But that's just another check in the "wow, you didn't even try" column.

I can't bring myself to care about Zoe because she's just a tool. She was brought in with the sole purpose of putting in nearly no effort to become friends with everyone and use the Bee Miraculous, as quickly as possible and as effortlessly as possible. Never mind that such a thing probably should have been earned. I just hate it when I can see the writer's intentions so blatantly.

But I get it, the Bee Miraculous is seriously OP and it'd be a shame not to use it just because Queen Bee was benched. Too bad Ladybug can't just merge Miraculouses and use it hersel- ohhhh, wait.

[jennycinco-5]

" You need to be patient because Season-X will be better "

" You need to be patient because the show is not over and there are 6969 Season that coming soon "

" Season-W maybe bad but I believe they will fix it in Season-X "

" There are MORE season guys... sooo~ wait for Season X, Y, Z "

" I still optimist because other writer will redeem it in next Season "

Maaaan~ Just shut up and stop being dumb to give a hope for a shit-show will be redeem like you already know the past season already PLENTY inconsistency, retcon and so-on, with the writer doesn't give a shit about criticism because he believe his fans are brainless shipper and young kids so who cares about consistency as long as your ship is sail in WORSE way possible.

They will "Redeem" it by stealing the fan theory, fanfiction, fanart, retcon the show, make unnecessary "multiverse" by claim it as "already planned it from beginning"

" If you hate it so don't watch it "

Alright, I already leave the show and doesn't give a fuck about the show or your headcanon to prove how "deep" the shit show it is

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

I kinda wish Zoe and Chloe interacted more

I’m going to be real, I have absolutely no opinions on Zoe as a character. I desperately wish I could love or hate her, but for as much as the show wants you to like her, they barely utilize her and her relationship with the Bourgeois family

One way this shows is with her relationship with her sister. You remember, back around the beginning of season 4 where Zoe said that she’d always love her sister despite everything? And how what she says implies she’d try to have some type of relationship with her?

Where is that?

They rarely interact in seasons 4 and 5, from what I remember. And then in season 5, she’s just all too happy to have Chloe leave! I’d be slightly more okay with it if they had more moments of Zoe trying and failing to connect with her sister throughout the show (tell don’t show and all), and came to the conclusion that she’s putting in all the work when she doesn’t need to. I’d actually love that! But the show doesn’t do anything with them!

You remember back in the season 4 finale when we saw a shot of them together looking scared at the fact that Hawkmoth got this powerful? Chloe looking scared? What happened with that? Why were they even together in this scene if the show’s not going to do anything with their relationship, not even to set up Chloe’s fall due to her lashing out at her sister when she’s trying to connect?

Their lack of any relationship, even the lack of a nonexistent relationship with one sided animosity kind of makes the whole “Zoe sitting back smiling while her sister gets sent off with her horrible mother and her stepdad(?) adopting her right after” a little strange?? Zoe lived with Audrey for years, knows exactly how terrible she is, and she’s completely fine with this? Even if she gave up on Chloe, you’d think she’d look a little conflicted about all of this?

[jeankirsteind]

Fanon!Chloes when she finds her OG creator did to her in the canonverse:

Well, just a little catharsis after finding out that guy is still involved in the next season even has full control and I hear the rumour there’ll be more mentally abuse for her both from Chrysalis, Audrey and our goodie heroes & sister who’s gonna giving speech no jutsu :3

[theerurishipper]

do you think Zoe as a character is a necessary for the plot?

I lover her design but as far I can see her character doesn't seems to be necessary for the story, at all. I thought at first she'd be a challenge for Chloe to finally become better, especially after the play they did in Queen Banana. I thought with Chloe break of her friendship with Adrien that would be the time for her to slide in and try to be a sister/friend for her which will create a positive characrer development for Chloe.

But as the story progress I feel like she doesn't seems like to make impact on Chloe's life and it seems like she doesn't even interact with Chloe much, she instead hang out with Marinette and end up become another generic character added for the sake for increasing Marinette's harem and I don't know, a better bee holder who wouldn't talk back to Ladybug or demanding thing from her perhaps? Because this show has allergies toward character who challenge Marinette's morality.

I mean if the reason why they added Zoe is just for the sake for a new bee holder, I don't see a reason why they can't use Aurore or Mirriele since they already have unique model. Being from different class doesn't stop Marc to be a miraculous holder after all. If she's added for the sake of lesbian representation, we have JuleRose already. So why is she here?

Honestly? Zoe is one of the most useless characters in the show. She only really exists so that the writers can fit her into whatever role they need to progress the plot, because she doesn't have any established characterization. I do like her design, but that's really about all I can say. She's just such a non-entity to me.

Her first episode was actually quite interesting to me personally. A character who tries to hide her true self and lies in order to be accepted by her peers? Interesting stuff! I dig characters like that. Her being all nice and friendly with Marinette at first and then switching instantly to becoming mean and cruel? How intriguing! What a good way to establish a character! This could be the start of a really good character journey in which Zoe learns that she doesn't have to put on these roles to be accepted, culminating with her earning the Bee Miraculous as a fully established character!

But there was no character arc. There was no arc, no nothing she just... got over it thanks to one speech and got the Bee Miraculous in the next episode and then descended into obscurity. She could have been so much. Imagine how it could have been if we had gotten to explore her character. Like, maybe she could have caused the akuma on her first day instead of being the one to be akumatized. This could have set up everyone else disliking her while leaving Marinette wondering why she seems so different from before, and it could have started Zoe off on the path of realizing she didn't want to put on an act to please bad people and be accepted by them because she didn't want to hurt other people, actually.

Over the course of the season, maybe we could learn about what exactly happened in her old school through a proper backstory and not just an exposition dump. We could learn about why she is the way she through exploring her relationships with her father and her mother. We could have her grow through her interactions with others and her observing Marinette with her friends, and we could have watched her slowly realize that she maybe doesn't want to put on an act anymore and that she just wants to be accepted for herself. This way, we could actually get to see her act this way and understand why she is the way she is, and have her motivation be revealed in a natural and compelling manner, instead of just having it all be dumped onto us in her debut episode.

Then we could have the obligatory akuma, which lets Marinette know that there's more to Zoe after all. Maybe Marinette tries to reach out to Zoe after that. Maybe this leads to Zoe learning what real and true friendships are really like and leads to her finding people whom she can be herself with and who will accept her unconditionally. Maybe we could actually see her hanging out and bonding with everyone and actually watch the scenes with stuff like Rose and Juleka helping her dye her hair instead of it being relegated to an end-of-the-episode montage. They could have used those sneakers of hers more. Those were an interesting and compelling aspect of her character, considering the fact that she would write down the nice things people said about her on it. Maybe we could have a scene of her doing that with her new friends. And maybe after this, she gets the Bee Miraculous, and being able to help Ladybug like this inspires her to help others the way Marinette helped her, which makes her reach out to Chloe, thus letting her true self shine through completely, and this could also prompt a gradual change in Chloe.

I'm just throwing out some scenarios here and I don't claim that I'll do a better job of anything, but I really do think that the reason Zoe's character suffers is because of the abysmal pacing. They set up something interesting with her and then resolved it in one episode, which made her character dull and boring for any other time she's on screen. If they had stretched it out over the course of the season, she would have been way more interesting. As it is, she has nothing going for her.

From a writing perspective, Zoe has the most generic personality ever. She's nice and kind, just like every other character in the show. Any interesting facets to her character or any meaningful conflict she could have faced is fixed in her introductory episode and never seen again, and she herself only ever appears in the background of other episodes along with the rest of Marinette's classmates, contributing nothing of value. Her relationship with Chloe and her promise to always love her? Forgotten. Her conflict about not wanting to put on an act? Somehow, she just... got over it in one day and was always just her authentic self from then on. Like, name one character trait about Zoe that you can't say about anyone else. Even the rest of the class, obscure as they are, have more defined personalities and quirks than she does.

Zoe is literally just there, and the writers pity her sometimes, so they give her stuff to do. And you can't really say any of them don't make sense for her character, because she doesn't really have one beyond the base traits of nice and good. So you need a replacement Chat Noir? Zoe. Need representation? Zoe. There's no real reason for any of this to be her, it just happens to be her... because. Like you said, this could have been done by characters who were already here. We could have had our lesbian rep from Julerose, we could have had Nino for the Black Cat. There's nothing of value that Zoe as a character brings to any of these things, it just so happens to be her because she has nothing else going for her, and because her personality is so underdeveloped and practically non-existent that anything goes. And also Kagami would have been a better choice for both of these things no seriously this is Kagami erasure this is Kagami slander justice for Kagami.

And it really does suck, because Zoe could have been an interesting character. Her character premise was genuinely compelling. But then she just got reduced to another classmate who hangs around helping Marinette confess and to another one of Ladybug's team. All her scenes are just comparing her to Chloe and going "oh Chloe bad Zoe good." There is nothing Zoe has going on for herself. She's really just there to be a replacement for Queen Bee. And this would have been fine if the writing organically and naturally inserted her into the role by fleshing out her character and relationships with Marinette/everyone else. But she has virtually no development or character and most of her scenes are used to beat it down our skulls that Chloe is Evil and Zoe is Good, so root for Zoe, guyz!

They are so insistent on shoving the Zoe is the Good Chloe agenda down our throats that they have characters act OOC just for that. Somehow, being talked down to in front of the school doesn't make Marinette doubt Zoe in any way, shape or form. Instead, the blame is placed on Chloe for corrupting her. Andre suddenly decides to grow a spine and stop enabling his daughter, and once again Zoe is supported and praised and Chloe is condemned (I'm not saying it was wrong for Chloe to be told off, just that it coming from Andre of all people just makes it part of the problem because it's so OOC). They even had Plagg go out of his way to compliment Vesperia over Queen Bee like, five seconds after he's seen her for the first time, even though Plagg never compliments anyone so quickly or so much, not even Adrien. They had Plagg spend the whole of Deflagration kissing Zoe's feet and praising her constantly even though he would never do so while he offers to Cataclysm Chloe! He would not fucking say that.

Honestly, when it comes to others interacting with Zoe and the conversation actually being about her instead of about Marinette, it just results in more comparisons to Chloe and how Zoe is sooooooo much better than her. Even the episode focusing on Zoe and her feelings has a Chloe subplot that basically takes over the whole thing so that they can be compared.

And I am self-admittedly not a Chloe stan. I am not particularly fond of her. But I also don't like being told what to think, and I don't like how the narrative tries so hard to make us hate Chloe and like Zoe without developing either of them or letting us come to our own conclusions. Zoe isn't given anything of her own. Either she is being whatever the writers want her to be or she is being Chloe but Good or she is being Marinette's newest wingman. They could have explored so much about her. They could have fleshed out her struggles and her backstory. They could have done something with that set up in Queen Banana between Zoe and Chloe's relationship. They could have explored Zoe's new relationships (the Zoe/Lila parallels practically write themselves, as does the Adrien-Zoe friendship). They could have elaborated more on her dream of being an actress. But they didn't. They just kept comparing her to Chloe whenever anything had to do with her, and her character suffered for it.

Zoe could have been her own character in her own right, and she did not need to be bogged down by being forever labelled "Chloe's replacement," but the show didn't let her grow beyond that initial label and now it's pretty much stuck forever. Honestly, she deserved better.

Thank you for your ask!

[artianaiolanthe]

Now I just have thoughts on how I would "fix" Zoe's addition to miraculous canon cause genuinely I can't understand why canon does what they do with her.

Also now I wanna know if anyone has redesigns where she does resemble Chloe more. Can someone let me know or hop on that please--

[fandomsarebrainless]

It's pathetic that this show hates Chloé so much that they give her ABUSERS more sympathy than Chloé herself. The same goes to certain fans (looking at you @hufflepotato18). If Chloé is supposed to be responsible for her actions than the parents of this show should be held accountable for their shitty parenting.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I’ve always wondered why I’m so harsh on Zoe outside of just her character being used to it’s simplest degree (ie just being a replacement for Chloe) and I think I get it now.

Zoe is a perfect example of the “good/perfect victim”. The writers literally used her to downplay Chloe’s own abuse experiences by saying “See? Here’s a teen who was also abused at school and she turned out to be a sweetheart who’s so much better than Chloe in every way” blatantly ignoring She and Chloe possibly different home lives because Zoe had a different father.

As someone with experiences of toxic home lives I don’t appreciate it when abuse gets undermined especially parental and Zoe being used as a mouthpiece for what I guess can be summed up as abuse apologia made me think so lowly of her as a character.

Thoughts?

I actually just got another ask about my thoughts on Zoe, so I'll schedule this to post the same day since it's topical. In that post, I talked about why she bugs me and it's because she reads like the main character in an escapist self-insert power-fantasy fanfic. Once again, to be extra clear, those types of fanfic are FINE! Power fantasies and escapism are extremely valid things that are popular in professional works, too. For example, they basically dominate isekai and romance stories, but Zoe showcases exactly why characters like this only work as main characters in escapist fantasies. If you try to make them work as a normal side character, they just feel weird. Make them the main character or don't write them. Since she's not the lead, why is she even here?

I didn't consider the perfect victim angle in that other post, but now that you've brought it up, I'm wondering if that was indeed why she was introduced. Is she here to show that someone could have Chloe's mom and still come out to be a good person? The writers do seem really obsessed with that idea as we see from this moment in Derision:

Marinette: (as she goes down the stairs) I just got three more hours of detention on Saturday, and it's all because of Chloé. Rose: Don’t be mad at her. She's this way because her mother left her when she was young. Mylène: So did mine! And you don't see me having fun bullying Marinette. We've got to do something about your pants. I'm afraid they might be ruined for good.

This isn't even why people think that Chloe is the way she is? It's not just because her mother left. It's her father's terrible parenting, her absurd wealth, and the fact that her mother didn't actually leave. Audrey is still very much around, she just ignores Chloe most of the time and insults her on the rare occasions when they're in the same place. That's a recipe for disaster.

Sure, some people are lucky enough to come out being a good person in spite of their messed up home life and those who come out as jerks don't get a free pass to be jerks, but it's not like it's a total shock when bad home lives lead to people being jerks. The bully with a bad home life is a stereotype for a reason.

I'll once again point to The Good Place as an excellent show to watch if you want to see a realistic journey for a Chloe-like character. A journey that acknowledges the struggles that come from a messed up home life without giving the characters a free pass to use that home life as an excuse for their actions. Part of their journey is accepting that they have to stop blaming their parents and take charge of their lives.

Miraculous could have done something similar if it wasn't a formula show. The potential was there. But it is a formula show and the writers apparently don't think that Chloes are capable of change. I get that childhood bullies suck, I had one! I am very happy that she's no longer in my life, but I also don't think that she was incapable of change. She just needed to be put in the right situation where she accepted that change was needed and that never happened when we were kids. Has it happened since then? I don't know! Some people never change, but that doesn't mean that they can't change. Most of us are capable of changing. It just takes the right catalyst and a lot of hard work. People rarely start changing out of nowhere. It almost always has an inciting incident.

That's actually part of why Zoe's story feels so shallow. We're never really told why she was the way she supposedly was pre-canon or what caused her to change into her canon self. This is the backstory we get in Sole Crusher:

Zoé: I'm... really sorry about today. I thought that if I did everything Chloé wanted me to, she'd accept me. I just wanted to meet my family's expectations. Which is why I left New York in the first place. At the boarding school, I was playing a part; being someone else, hoping they'd accept me. But finally, I just couldn't anymore. That's when everyone turned against me, and one day, I found roaches in my locker. They all said I was a loser. Maybe they were right. I get that I'm different, and... I'd understand if you guys didn't want me as a friend.

So Zoe lied about everything and, when she revealed that she was a massive liar, everyone turned against her? Shocking. Why wouldn't they welcome a confirmed liar with open arms? That's so weird! (That was sarcasm.)

Seriously, why are we acting like Zoe was the wronged party here? This is literally Lila's story save for the motivation behind the actions (as far as we know). There are times when motivation matters, but this is not one of them. If you've spent weeks (months? years?) lying to people, then they're not going to trust you when the lies are revealed. Maybe you'll get lucky and someone will be willing to hear you out and give you a second chance, but that's an act of kindness. It's not an act of basic human decency.

This speed run story probably wants us to believe that everyone at Zoe's school was evil and that Zoe had to fake a personality to fit in, but I don't believe that. Writers, if you want me to believe it, then actually show us her story! You had a full New York special to do it! Why didn't you make Zoe the lead there since the specials love to introduce new characters to hog the screen? Have Zoe's school be the American school they go to and have her personality change be caused by Marinette and Co. so that Marinette and Co. trusting Zoe in Sole Crusher actually makes sense instead of feeling like something the plot forced on them! This is the scene I'm talking about, btw:

Marinette: (confused) I don't understand. When I met her this morning, she was so nice. Alya: That's crazy. Chloe's influence is so toxic that she's managed to corrupt her sister in a few hours. Alix: We gotta get her out of there.

Why are you all so sure that Marinette's two-minute-long interaction was the "real" Zoe and that her new personality is all Chloe's fault? Why are you acting like it's impossible to fake being nice but faking being evil is totally reasonable?

It really feels like this show is trying to say that people are either inherently good or inherently evil. Zoe was inherently good and just played at evil, so she's fine, but Chloe is just evil so she's doomed. That is really not how the world works, but now that I think about it, it does match the way the miraculous are often used. There are "evil" and "good" versions of some of the powers instead of just powers that can be used for good or evil. I've never liked that because it makes no sense. Why do akumas need a good form? Why is there an evil transformation phrase? Why do the miraculous even have an evil mode? Who programed that in???

While were on the topic of things that were possibly done just to show that Chloe is evil: is this why they made Jagged Stone an absentee parent to Luka and Juleka and then made the "twins" totally cool with it? Is the show trying to say, "Look! Luka and Juleka are nice! Therefore this is a Chloe problem. Stop blaming her parents!"

Who knows, but your idea certainly has merit. I wouldn't go so far as to claim that this must be what's going on, we don't know and I don't like to treat educated guesses as fact because they're not, but the text certainly has evidence to back this read.

[western-magical-girl-confessions]

“MLB Spoilers: Initially, I had planned on giving Zoé the benefit of the doubt, but after what Andre and Audrey did to Chloé, forget it. Andre KNOWS Audrey is abusive and yet is perfectly fine with sending Chloé to live with her anyway all while admitting Zoé is his favorite. And he declares custody over her even though legally he wouldn't be allowed to do that. And in the end, Chloé gets booed and jeered while leaving Paris in disgrace. What kind of fucked up ending is this???

It's official, Zoé was intended to be Chloé's replacement, nothing more. This was the final nail in the coffin for her, I'm done giving Zoé chances. Too much of the narrative has suffered just to make her work and Chloé... oh god Astruc went too far this time.”

[927roses-and-stuff]

So I stumbled into the pit that is ML salt for the first time in a while and @geekgirles post about Lila's character assassination made me realize something:

Zoé isn't just a character full of Chloe's potentially good traits, she's also who fans wished Lila was all the way back in seasons 1-2 (and maybe still? idk).

Let's take a look at who Zoé is as a character:

New girl from another country with connections who acts differently around other people and exaggerates aspects of her life for attention and friendship. She wants attention and friends because her mom is neglectful (and possibly worse), and isn't around enough to give her the attention she needed and craved growing up. She has a potential to be a Miraculous hero and possibly has romantic tension with Marinette.

...Is that literally not who fanon!Lila was back when Volpina first aired and everyone was talking about her? Like quite literally, the only difference is that Lila hates Ladybug and likes Marinette whereas Zoé has no reason to hate Ladybug. (Also I'm not sure if Lila's mom was ever portrayed to be worse than neglectful).

Yes, now canon and fanon versions of Lila are demons from hell who need to have consequences for lies and wrongdoings but Lila's potential became the basis for Zoé's character, and any character growth and development for Lila went out the window and now she has 3 moms who presumably don't know about this triple life, I guess???

I mean, in the end, they ended up both being bland and I can't even get excited for fics where Lila faces consequences because she's an anonaly who doesn't matter in canon, and Zoé is essentially more of a prop than character. But still, they really took a look at what fans wanted, plucked the ideas with potential and gave them to a new character that didn't need to exist.

[rainbow18]

All the reasons why Zoe is a Mary Sue.

1. Characters are made ooc when Zoe’s around.

Marinette met Zoe and She quickly began spilling her heart out by talking about she kept falling and discussed how she had a crush. Then she gave Zoe her phone number. Marinette talked about how she fell all the time and discussed how she fell in love. Then soon after, In Queen Banana, She gave Zoe the Bee Miraculous even though She only knew her for a short amount of time.

Does this sound like something Marinette would do if it was someone else?

Not really. Marinette doesn’t like talking about herself and her feelings in front of strangers. She usually only opens up if She’s with people who have been her friends for a while. (Although she will occasionally make exceptions if Adrien is involved) Marinette also doesn’t hand out Miraculouses so fast after meeting someone. Every other character has to know Marinette for at least 1 season.

Marinette isn’t the only one that’s ooc when it comes to Zoe.

How did Zoe get a name that’s so close to Chloe’s if Audrey can’t remember Chloe’s name? Plus why would she give Zoe a similar name when she doesn’t even like Chloe? The only other times that siblings names are that close to each other is if they’re twins. (I know Juleka and Luka weren’t always Twins but still, they got retconned to be Twins.)

Audrey completely left Chloe in another country yet She stayed in the exact same State as Zoe?

Andre showed no signs of not wanting to be a Mayor prior to Season 4 yet Zoe comes around and he suddenly reveals that he gave up on his old dream? Andre always does what Chloe wants him to do yet he refused to send Zoe away?

Chloe had become worse at around the same time that Zoe was introduced.

Plagg had quickly complimented Zoe when she first became Vesperia. How often does Plagg compliment someone else that fast? At least Félix had given Adrien, Plagg’s favorite food which caused him to earn Plagg’s forgiveness.

2. Zoe doesn’t have The Personality that she should have given her backstory.

The point of giving a character a Backstory, especially a Tragic one is to explain their PRESENT behavior.

Zoe has been left at a boarding school and She began being bullied when She stopped pretending to be someone that she wasn’t. Then She went to join Audrey, Chloe and Andre in Paris.

These are lists of beliefs that someone with that backstory could develop. (Taken from the website One stop for writers.)

(1 = Being abandoned/shunned. 2 = Having Neglectful parents. 3 = Discovering that one’s parent has another family. 4 = Being bullied. )

To be fair, Zoe does express a couple of these thoughts occasionally. However Zoe usually doesn’t express this stuff at all.

Before anyone suggests “Maybe the writers don’t want to show how a backstory can affect a person” Let’s compare Zoe to characters with similar backstories.

Marinette’s been bullied for years. As a result, Marinette has been shown hating how Chloe can get away with everything. Marinette’s been shown being insecure multiple times. Marinette has been shown being passive and it’s canon that she didn’t start standing up for herself until Alya came around.

Colt was abusive and it’s stated that Felix didn’t have any friends. As a result, Felix doesn’t like people much. Felix often fights with others. Felix hates the word “Monster!” because Colt often called him that. Felix likely mocked Nino’s “Bros stick together” because nobody (except Amelie) stuck by him.

Gabriel is extremely neglectful at best, abusive at worst. As a result, Adrien been shown sacrificing himself multiple times and during Guilt Trip, He appeared to be trying to cataclysm himself. In Gamer, while playing, Adrien commented on how he was pretty much not even there due to how good Marinette was. Adrien was shown to be passive too.

3. Everyone has to like her otherwise they are a unredeemable villain.

Marinette? She’s the main Hero and She’s Zoe’s first friend.

Mylene, Rose, Ivan, Alya and so on? They all quickly agreed to be Zoe’s friends after meeting her. Every single one of them is a Hero.

Andre? He ends up disowning Chloe and adopting Zoe as part of his redemption.

Felix? Zoe isn’t allowed to properly meet him because He’ll have to like her, which will be too ooc for him. (I know that technically, they saw each other during Strike Back however they didn’t exchange any words or have any meaningful interactions.)

Audrey? Terrible human being. She doesn’t like Zoe.

Chloe? She doesn’t like Zoe and She’s evil.

4. She’s used to show off how horrible Chloe is as well as how much Thomas Astruc hates Chloe.

Thomas Astruc didn’t hide what he was doing.

His self insert was around during Queen Banana. He talked about how sometimes Writers rewrite the script. Zoe was to get one of the lead roles.

Every character’s relationship with Zoe is the opposite of the relationship that they had with Chloe.

At the end of season 5, Zoe gets adopted by Andre whereas Chloe gets disowned. Chloe’s forced to stay with their abusive Mother.

Zoe gets to keep The Bee Miraculous permanently in the Season 5 ending, which is exactly what Chloe wanted.

Since Zoe’s backstory didn’t affect her much, The only reason Why the Writers gave Zoe a tragic backstory is so that Chloe will look even worse because Zoe had similar problems but she turned out fine.

He had characters compare Chloe and Zoe and made visual comparisons between Chloe and Zoe, with Zoe always being superior. Please note the ONLY other characters that got compared to each other like this were Adrien and Felix. (We all know Thomas Astruc never misses an opportunity to have Adrien be superior to Félix because of how much he hates Félix and how PV fans don’t understand why he replaced Félix with Adrien. )

The reason why Zoe doesn’t want to go back to New York is so that Chloe will look more cruel for wanting her gone.

Zoe gets The Bee Miraculous but has a Wasp theme.

5. Everything about Zoe is copied from another character.

Having Audrey for a Mother? Chloe.

Good Person with bad relatives? Kagami and Adrien.

Clothing style? Marinette.

Colors? Chloe.

Dream to be a actress? Mylene.

Personality? Rose and Marinette.

Dyed hair? Juleka.

Wearing a Hat in her hair? Mylene.

Been bullied? Marinette.

Absent Father? Juleka.

[snaaail]

Someone needs to sit me the fuck down, and explain to me in detail why the fuck them writers decided to make Zoe ( a character we have seen in two episodes ) instead of LITERALLY ANYBODY ELSE. 

[jennrypan]

Will never approve Plagg wantin to cataclysm Chloe over Zoe.

Ever.

Will never approve Zoe having the cat miraculous and being important despite not actually doin shit to earn it and get anyone to care about her.

I hate how this shows message is. If you have shitty parents, you ALWAYS have to be nice and if you arent youre the literal devil, and worse than actual abusive parents fuck you.